30 replies to this topic

[snick]

As some of you know, I've been birding now for all of 2 months. But I finally hit a minor milestone: 100 confirmed species. So to celebrate, I'd like to pepper you experts with a few more questions. : )

1. Veracity of bird lists
I see birder's lists online that frequently approach, and sometimes surpass, 100 species in one day. How is this possible? : | Are some of these IDs 'confirmed' by sound only? Do people ostensibly 'cheat' by listing birds they think are correct, without being absolutely certain?

One aspect of this that frustrates me is that I frequently see local lists with several sightings of species I've never seen, anywhere. A common example is hawks and eagles-- a cursory look at local sightings on eBird shows multiple sharp-shinned, red-shouldered and golden eagles. I have NEVER seen any of these. Every time I'm out birding I see dozens upon dozens of turkey vultures and red-tailed hawks, with some kites, cooper's and the occasional northern harrier. What gives?

2. How to define a 'confirmed' ID
Does this vary from person to person? Can an ID be confirmed by sound only? Is a photo required for certain species? If you're with someone who says, "that's a purple finch, not a house finch", does that count? 24 years ago I went to Patagonia and a tour guide pointed up at the sky to indicate we were looking at Andean Condors. Last year I was hiking down into the Grand Canyon when a fellow hiker pointed to a dot in the sky that was apparently a California Condor. Should I count both of these? ( I honestly have trouble with anyone looking at a tiny dot, without binoculars, and confirming an ID )

3. Photo vs. visual/aural ID
For me, at this point, I'm requiring myself to have a photo in order to confirm an ID (with certain, rare exceptions). Is this important to anyone else? Does anyone keep 2 lifelists, 1 for photos and 1 all-inclusive?

4. Other "rules"
I know that caged animals do not count. : ) What about domestics, escaped pets, etc? I'm thinking specifically about peacocks/peahens, which I've seen at various locations. Also, do some people not count birds seen at feeders?

Sorry if any of these questions are annoying. Just trying to learn how you guys (and girls) do it!

[snick]

Also, I really want to thank Liam, fisherman, creeker, psweet, PatB, jblakelock, BillyPilgrim, Limpkin, Melissa, aveschapines and the rest of you (who'd I leave out?) for all your help with IDs!

[JimBob]

1: When I started birding I didn't ever see many birds. . . but now an average day I see 40 or so species. I personally don't know how people see a hundred species in a day. . . the most I've seen is 56. I also don't see birds that are reported on ebird. I can tell you now that you will see a Red-shouldered Hawk soon. (they are very common in CA, so you will see one)
2: I don't count birds that I hear only. . . but I don't NEED a picture for counting a bird. But several birds I have not counted because, I don't have a picture. If I saw a bird that a BIRDING guide said was something, I would count it. But if someone who has no experience with birds, I wouldn't count it. I have had several incidents where someone has called a Great Blue Heron, a stork, and a Red-tailed Hawk a kite, or falcon. So I wouldn't be surprised if someone made a mistake with the condor.
3: I count anything that I see on my lifelist if I KNOW what it was. . . and I also have a photo lifelist. I need rare birds to have photos.
4: I don't know of anyone who counts peacocks. . . but I know some people count parrots.

Hope this helped.

[dklucius]

its been stated on here before that a life list is your list. what you make of it is what it means to you. with me it means i add the birds that i am confident in the identity. as far as people seeing 50 or 100 birds in a day usually means they go to a wildlife preserve or a nesting area where you can see many birds in one area most people do not count domestics or escapees but for me if they are established in the wild and have adapted to living in the great outdoors i do count them. some people don't count imported species but if they become established wild birds i do count them.i do prefer to get photos so i can post them on here or compare them to guides or web sites. but if i don't get a photo but am sure of what i have seen i do count it. some only count birds considered on national bird lists and again if i see non native birds living in the wild tha is good for me if i am sure what it is.

[BirdingBlues]

You pose some great thoughts, ones I've struggled with myself. To answer some of your questions ...

The more you bird, the more birds you know about. I'm still a beginner myself, I've seen 180 birds. I just realized there was such a bird called a Sora, who knew? Just goes to show the more you bird, the more you seen, the more you know what to look for.

Sharp Shinned hawks are in my area year round, but I've only seen 2 in the last 3 years. Right place right time, and knowing the field marks to look for. Coops and SS can be tough to tell apart in flight, perhaps you've seen one and you never knew it. That's why photos can sometimes be 'lifer-savers'.

Confirming an ID can be tough, especially when you're starting out. I use this forum to get right down to it, and the people in this forum are great.

Audio/Visual - I like to get photos, but when it is an obvious, good look at a new bird without a photo, I'll count it. In regards to hearing, I can't always count it. I am PRETTY SURE I heard a Sora down at my local marsh a few weeks ago, but I didn't know what it was at the time, so I went back and researched it but I won't add it to my life list until I hear it again. Sort of a frustrating thing, I'll give you that.

But all of these reasons are why we keep going back for more! Birding is endless entertainment, and addicting.

[Parula]

i have got 101 birds in a day just go a couple different habitats in migration

[gfabbri]

Congrats on the milestone! I'm a newbie as well, with a list closing in on 100 soon (by the end of August, I recon).

I've been going back and cleaning up my list from earlier this year as there were a couple of species I wasn't sure of (I'm using a 95% sure benchmark as "good enough"...). These days, if I can ID field marks on plumage, I definitely list the bird, otherwise I chalk it up to "probable." I have also been listing birds if the GISS plus behavior plus location plus season clues all point to one - and only one - species, again within a 95% confidence limit. I will count birds on eBird if I hear them, but only if I have seen the bird at least once. IIRC, the "Big Year" rules do allow records based solely on song, but I want to see the bird.

I do list feral, self-sustaining colonies of domestic birds (but have only done so once, with a colony of Embden Geese that have been at the same location for a decade).

As far as mega-lists go, I have seen some pretty impressive (80+ species) lists coming in just this week from extremely credible birders spending hours and hours at one of Massachusetts' NWRs, and I completely believe them. I look forward to being able to recognize - and find - that many species, but for now I'm happy pecking away at my list & enjoying the great outdoors.

-G

[Aveschapines]

Nice of you to include me in your list. I'm pretty new myself (about two years and a bit) so I'm not always able to help.

The answers to many of your questions will vary by the individual, of course. But for me:

1. I would hope people don't cheat, but birding is mostly done on and "on your honor" basis. I don't think I have 100 birds yet (I'm not particularly motivated to keep lists and count species, as it turns out) and I certainly haven't seen 100 in a day. But I have seen people count all the birds found in a group as personal lifers. On my first Christmas Bird Count, one couple there dropped out several hours early, but then requested a copy of the final list for their team to add to their personal life list. I kept my own list, much smaller than my team's list (explanation in a bit). Also, some places are very rich in bird species; I don't think it would be unrealistic to see 100 species in Tikal, for example, in a day because there are 350 residents and about 50 migrant species there.

2. I count birds if I'm sure of the ID and I have seen enough of the bird myself to be able to recognize it. I rarely have the chance to bird with other birders, but if I do and they ID a species but I can see the field marks, I'll count it. Last year at the CBC we saw an Emerald Toucanet; I saw it in the sense of seeing a bird fly by, but there is no way I would have any idea what it was. The people with me tried to convince me to count it but I didn't feel I had really "seen" it. Later I saw one on my own and was able to recognize it so it's a lifer now!

3. I don't require a photo if I'm sure of the ID. I'm not a photographer, and I honestly don't see what photographing a bird has to do with having seen it. I do try to get photos, especially if I can't ID the bird so I can ask for help, but I always try first to get a good look through the binocs. I have heard others here say they require a photo, but I don't. I note on my list if I have a half-decent photo, but not required. I'm not good enough at IDing by ear to get lifers this way, but the few species I can recognize by voice I'll count on my list of birds observed that day.

4. I don't count any domesticated birds, so no pet or escaped parrots, canaries, etc. No wild-type turkeys being rasied at someone's home. I had doubts about the Ocellated Turkeys at Tikal, since they stroll about freely and have no fear of humans, but I was able to confirm that they are in fact wild so I counted them. I count wild birds I see at the zoo, but never the caged or aviary birds there.

Hope some of these ideas are helpful to you! In the end, it's your list and you get to decide what to count. I suppose we are all different because we have different goals in birding. I'm as thrilled to see an old favorite, or to recognize a bird more easily, or observe new behavior, as to see a new lifer. Others get more thrill at seening the numbers add up. As long as you're having fun and learning, I think it's all fine!

EDIT Forgot to say I'm amazed at how many more birds I see as time goes by. You just get better at spotting them and they seem to appear out of nowhere. I laugh at myself because the Rufous-Collared Robin was one of the first birds I identified, and then I waited months to spot a second one. Now I very literally see dozens a day. There really is skill and knowledge involved in finding and identifying the birds.

Also, I definitely count birds at my feeders and birdbaths. They're wild birds so why not?

[PoorMatty]

1. It is possible to see 100 or more species in a single day, and I think I probably have a couple of times, or at least come close, but it takes some exhaustive birding, and almost certainly during migration. Usually dawn to dusk, hitting a ton of different habitats, and doing a lot of birding by ear.

Your Red-shouldered Hawk dilemma is that of a classic nemesis bird: a bird everyone else sees, and you "should" certainly have seen, but you just keep missing. The thing about a lot of nemesis birds, especially something like a Red-shouldered Hawk which is, for all intents and purposes, a "common" species, is that once you finally see one, you will see them all the time.

2. For me, a confirmed ID means that you are 100% confident in the knowledge that you are correct in an ID you have made. It doesn't always have to be corroborated by a "better" birder, and certainly not by a photo. For example, I can't swing a stick without hitting a Carolina Wren around here; I don't need anything to "confirm" a bird as one other than a cursory glance, or even just hearing a song or call. I just know the species like the back of my hand. Likewise, you are in California and are unlikely to run into a Painted Bunting; however, if you've ever become infatuated with them via field guides, you know what they look like, and if you saw a male in full plumage, there would likely be no need for external confirmation of what you saw. There's just nothing else that looks like them. Whatever it takes for you to be 100% confident is what it takes to confirm an ID. That could be as simple as, "Oh, that's a House Sparrow, I see them all the time," or it could require that you take a photo and seek out the help of a birder (or a group of Whatbirders) whose knowledge you trust. In the end, you're the only "judge," and you're on your own honor system. So as long as you are completely sure of your ID, then it is confirmed. If I were you, I wouldn't count the condor species unless I felt like I had gotten to really look at them and enjoy them, secure in the knowledge that I was looking at and enjoying Andean/California Condors.

As a (sort of) aside, when I'm tallying a day's list, I count birds that I heard and didn't see if I was sure of what I was hearing. I've been birding long enough that it's very rare for me to here a bird song that I don't know. Learning to bird by ear can be very rewarding, but it can also take a lot of time. However, I wouldn't count a life bird if it was a heard-only ID, unless it was a really rare (or, and this is just shallowness on my part) really ugly bird that I didn't think I was likely to get a good look at, but I did hear clearly enough to ID it. The only time I've ever done this was with either a Whip-poor-will or Chuck-will's-widow years and years ago, though I have been lucky enough to actually see both birds since then. Heard-only birds are acceptable as lifers according to ABA guidelines (I think--somebody correct me if I'm wrong), but in general that's not the way I like to operate.

3. I've never been a bird photographer (although I would like to get into it), so having a photo is a non-issue for me.

4. I don't see anything at all wrong with counting feeder birds, but I would never count a bird that wasn't occurring naturally in an area. "Naturally" is a relative word when it comes to birds, but for me, it just means it isn't a one-off escape or otherwise domesticated bird.

None of these questions were annoying, and it's always interesting to hear other birders' takes on some of these issues!

[fisherman1313]

There are numerous threads on the forums about the "rules" for keeping a life list, but, as DKLucius said, basically the answer to most of your questions is its your list so you make the rules. The only time strict rules apply to listing is if you plan to submit a list to the American Birding Association (ABA).

But, based on my experiences,

1. Birding with a group can be helpful, the more eyes, the more birds. Sometimes groups can get too large though, I prefer groups of 4-8. The highest single day total I've ever had was 101. I was at Cosumnes River Preserve (off Hwy 5 south of Elk Grove, if you ever get a chance to go there don't hesitate), which is made up of several habitats. River, slough, marsh, ponds, grassland, forest, oak savanna, etc. I was on an Audubon field trip with 5-6 others and as far as I can remember we did not have any "heard onlys" that day, but many people do count birds that are heard but not seen. I personally don't but will include them in a trip list if I'm reporting to eBird or sharing the list with others I was birding with. I have no doubt that a few people do "cheat" but birding is based on the honor system. If a person frequently reports rare birds or unusually high species counts without something to back it up they will lose their credibility and pretty soon no one will believe anything they say. It's like when I was discussing a Sora and Virginia Rail I saw on New Years Day last year, the birds were seen seconds appart in an area where no one had ever seen any rails before. Someone in the group ask the trip leader how he could believe that I actually saw both rails there. He simply replied, "I belive him because he said he saw them".

2. Again, you make the rules for your list. As I said, many people do count "heard only" birds on their lists. In fact, the ABA rules state that a bird can be counted if it can be positively IDed by voice alone. I have a section after my life list where I keep track of my "heard only" birds. It's more to give myself a little extra incentive to try to move those birds off that list, though. As for other people IDing the bird for me, I will count a bird IDed by someone else if I get a good enough look at it to be able to ID it myself. If I'm not 100% sure of an ID, whether I was the one to make it or not, I don't count it. If you feel confident in the IDs of the condors then count them (side note: ABA does not consider the California Condor a "wild" species because the population can not sustain itself without human interferance).

3. I do not take pics of birds, my camera is not that good. I once took a pic of a White-headed Woodpecker on a Giant Sequoia, the bird showed up a tiny white dot, so I gave up on pics for the time being.

4. Some people count any bird they see in a wild state, including domestics and escapees, but most don't. The Peafowl you saw were probably released on the property where you saw them and so would not be considered "wild" and therefore not countable. I have heard of a couple of people who do not count feeder birds because they don't consider them "wild" either but they are the exception. Again, it's your list so you make the rules.

[guy_incognito]

Lots of good points made here, so no need to re-discuss much of it. So, briefly:

Absolutely it is possible get 100+ species when visiting appropriate habitats aided by a good ear and local knowledge. Heck, the Cornell team got 264 birds in a 24 hour period: http://www.birds.cor...birding-record/

At first I only counted those birds I had a photo of, so they could be absolutely confirmed. However, I've now added a few birds that were seen or heard without a photo, mainly because they were easily identified by call or sight. Owls and nightjars come to mind.

[ginspin16]

i've wondered about the feral/escaped birds too. i only count the ones on the ABA list, but i wonder how they decide which ones are countable. for instance they have some parrots on the list but not others. and they have muscovy duck but not egyptian goose. i've also seen checklists on ebird that list mallard and then mallard-domestic type separately. how can you tell the difference?

[Pat B.]

Thanks for the thanks!

As for huge #s of species in a day: I think experience makes a big difference. Good birders see more birds, period. They know what birds look like and can spot subtle things quickly. It's a learned skill. And, habitat is really important, along with experience. Good birders know where to look for each bird. When we first start out, we wouldn't know that it makes no sense to look for, say, a Chukar at a bird feeder. But, now I know that they hang out in the rocks on Antelope Island and I see them nearly every time I go there; when I first moved to Utah, I never saw them because I never looked in the rocks.

I was with a group in May that saw I think around 120 species in a 12-hour period. This was on a bird festival tour of a huge multi-habitat ranch, led by two outstanding birders. I think my count for that day was in the 70s. I didn't count birds that just looked like a blur to me because I could not describe them myself. Hawks that were just speck to me I did not count because I didn't know what they were even though they were IDd by others. My attitude is much like Helen's (see above) on this and at the last Christmas Bird Count MY list was quite a bit smaller than our team's official list (and I was the scorekeeper).

As for rules: I count what I personally see and personally ID. That means I have seen the bird and seen it well enough to note its characteristics. For a new one, I attempt to learn or confirm my hypothesis by looking in several field guides. If I can't figure it out, I post on WhatBird or my local listserv. "Confirmed" means, to me, that I'm sure what I saw. Many times, I'm not and so I make a point to find those birds again and try to observe what the field guides told me I'd missed. If a bird is way out of range, I won't count it without a consensus of local birders via our listserv (like the lone Prothonatory Warbler we had here a couple of months ago - it was way, way off course, but many locals were out chasing it and posting about it. If I had seen it by myself and no one else had been seeing it, I doubt I would have counted it).

I don't require a photo. Sometimes I do photograph, but only if I have had a good visual look at the bird first. I don't want to miss a bird by fiddling with a camera or a field guide.

I won't add a "heard only" to my life list. But, I will count it after that if I'm sure. There aren't many birds I'm yet sure of by sound, but I will count Black-capped Chickadees (duh!), Western Scrub-jays, Northern Flickers, Soras, Sandhill Cranes, and a few others.

[BarnSwallow]

i've wondered about the feral/escaped birds too. i only count the ones on the ABA list, but i wonder how they decide which ones are countable. for instance they have some parrots on the list but not others. and they have muscovy duck but not egyptian goose. i've also seen checklists on ebird that list mallard and then mallard-domestic type separately. how can you tell the difference?

Some parrots have established breeding populations - monk parakeets have breeding populations in several widespread areas. It's hard to determine when to start counting a bird. For instance, house sparrows, starlings, and collared doves were all introduced species, but now have established breeding populations.

Muscovy ducks are different. The only countable muscovy ducks are the very few wild ones that can be seen on the Texas/Mexico border. Any others are not countable.

[BirdingBlues]

Some parrots have established breeding populations - monk parakeets have breeding populations in several widespread areas.

There is a sizable population of Monk Parakeets on the Connecticut coast - my girlfriend had seen and photographed a group of them last month and technically, they are now wild, so I'd count it, much like you would a starling.

[BarnSwallow]

Yes, I'd count them too.

[bushwacker]

My best single day was 186 species, but that was a world series of birding big day years ago. I don't do those anymore because it is exhausting and you don't really get to enjoy the sitings. You should feel very positive about a new bird to count it. the birder that can say they are not certain of an ID is often the better birder that one who rattles off definitive id's with utmost certainty. Having said that I can identify the spec of a turkey vulture a pretty long way off without binoculars, a buteo or accipitor requires a bit more detail.I have seen plenty of off the wall id's in the field and on this site, but I know you can't argue with know it alls. Sometimes it is best to not be so sure. A recent lifer for me was white tailed kite. the bird was a backlit spec a mile away in late afternoon glare. I found it by putting my scope on the same bird the 3 dozen other birders were looking at. I "knew" what it was, but could not make out a single field mark. after a long wait, the bird moved a bit and showed a distintively kite like flight pattern. I had the bird with an asterisk*. a few days later I relocated the bird by myself in better light, saw it fly somewhat closer, checked off a number distinctive field marks removed the asterisk and congratulated myself on a great look at a new lifer. It is your list and your comfort level. be patient and don't let the peeps and empids get you down

[BarnSwallow]

Haha! Love this quote!! Great post, by the way.

"...don't let the peeps and empids get you down"

[snick]

Thanks for all your replies so far! This has been very helpful.

[MWM]

To throw my hat in the ring.... I've only actually birded for about 3 years and because of my interest in photography, I only keep a photo list (although it includes an audio clip of an Eastern Whip-poor-will). As posed in earlier posts, it's your list, do what you want to do! However, if you want a guideline, you can always look up the ABA checklist & rules on line (American Birding Association). I try to follow that to some degree, but not always to the letter.

As for the 100 bird day, I volunteer at a local Wildlife Refuge and each year we have a 24 hour birding competition. Teams of 3 or 4 count as many birds as possible, with all team members having to see and/or hear a bird before it can be counted. Of the 20 or so teams, almost all reach 100 birds, with some getting near 150. During migration, with a mix of habitats (we have marsh, woods, grassland, lake & river habitats on the refuge) it isn't that hard. Of course, they are out for 16 to 20 hours, so it's a long day, and extra sets of eyes really help!

FYI - The "world series" of birding (Cape May NJ) each spring often gets up around 180 birds in 24 hours.