46 replies to this topic

[snick]

The more I struggle with IDs, the more I wonder about this:

Does a resource exist (either hard copy or internet) that includes every age, gender, plumage and other variant-specific detail for Western North American Birds?

Here's an example of what I mean, using a Mallard:

Mallard
-Drake (adult)
-basic plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-breeding plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-alternate plumages (description and photos, in flight and perched)

-Hen (adult)
-basic plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-breeding plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-alternate plumages (description and photos, in flight and perched)

-Drake (juvenile)
-basic plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-breeding plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-alternate plumages (description and photos, in flight and perched)

-Hen (juvenile)
-basic plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-breeding plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-alternate plumages (description and photos, in flight and perched)

etc.

In this example, the section for Mallard would contain, at minimum, 9 different descriptions, with at least 18 drawings/photos.

Or, for Gulls:

California Gull
-Adult Male (female, juveniles, etc.)
-1st winter plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-2nd winter plumage (description and photos, in flight and perched)
-alternate plumages (description and photos, in flight and perched)

In other words, every possible variation for every species. Is this too much to ask?

I'm still a novice, but I find that it's simply impossible to ID many birds (esp. females, juvies, basic plumage) using only my field guide and image searching.

Most field guides list some of the above, but not all. I realize the difficulty in creating a resource with all this info, particularly drawings or photos, but I was still wondering if something existed somewhere.

Or, perhaps, there are family-specific resources that contain this type of detail?

I know I might be asking for the world here, but I thought I'd see what you experts recommend. Thanks in advance for any guidance here.

[Pat B.]

My impression is that any general (i.e., multiple species) field guide will be deficient in some of those things due to space limitations. That is why there are specialized guides for the more complex things, such as Gulls, shorebirds, raptors, etc.

Other than using specialized guides, it is often helpful to use multiple general field guides, since one will often cover what another doesn't.

[psweet]

The closest thing I can come up with is Pyle's manuals -- but they're big, expensive, awfully technical, and include very few illustrations. An approach that will ultimately work is to actively try to learn a few common species very well -- try to figure out the age and sex of every individual you can find, when it molts and at what stage of molt it's at when you see it, etc. Then, a. you become an expert on that species, and b. you have a very good basis for understanding what you're seeing in related species.
Of course, this takes time and a lot of work, not necessarily what everyone wants to put into a hobby.

[snick]

An approach that will ultimately work is to actively try to learn a few common species very well -- try to figure out the age and sex of every individual you can find, when it molts and at what stage of molt it's at when you see it, etc. Then, a. you become an expert on that species, and b. you have a very good basis for understanding what you're seeing in related species.
Of course, this takes time and a lot of work, not necessarily what everyone wants to put into a hobby.

OK, at some point I'll be able to do this. In terms of being able to ID birds in the short term, I may need to either a) buy the specialized guides to which Pat refers, or continue posting everything to Whatbird.

I start to feel a bit embarrassed when I post pic after pic asking for IDs. I've got dozens more right now that I can't ID, but didn't want to post all of them if there was SOME WAY I could learn to do this on my own. Using every resource I can find online, plus my field guide, has proven to be inadequate.

[BarnSwallow]

A lot of being able to ID confidently comes from experience. Just getting out and looking at birds. Many birds I ID in real life are IDed by GISS. I'e seen them so many times that just a glimpse is enough.

The best thing you can do now is to just take a couple of good guides and keep them where you can browse through them on a regular basis. Just look at pics, read the descriptions and look at range maps. You don't have to study them intently - just skim through them. It will at least help you recognize what family the birds you see belong in, even if you can't recognize the species right away.

[spyonabird]

Here is a site I found the other day. It's not complete, but they are working on adding species. The ones they have are really complete
http://www.migration.../idlibrary.html

[psweet]

And finally, don't be afraid to make mistakes, even to have to go back and fix your lists at some point. Making mistakes is the best way to learn.

[snick]

It will at least help you recognize what family the birds you see belong in, even if you can't recognize the species right away.

Thanks, Barn. I do fairly well identifying the family in the field at this point, certainly after looking carefully at my guide. My real problem, as mentioned, is birds within the same family that look nearly identical in basic plumage (or females, juvies, etc.).

Case in point, my recent duck post:
http://www.whatbird.com/forum/index.php?/topic/84587-duck-id/

There's just no way I could have IDed that as a mallard mutt with a field guide.

[snick]

Here is a site I found the other day. It's not complete, but they are working on adding species. The ones they have are really complete
http://www.migration.../idlibrary.html

Wow. That's got some potential! You're right; for at least some species, the info + pictures are exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

[snick]

Also, in the last hour or so I've spoken to one member of the forum here who has agreed to personally help me out with some of the IDs. This means I don't have to post EVERY LAST photo to Whatbird and feel like such a nuisance.

[BarnSwallow]

Eh, I have fun IDing pics posted here! Not a nuisance at all. I mean, as long as you don't post shorebirds, empids, juvie gulls, LBJs, it's fun!!

[spyonabird]

Please post as much as you want. It help us learn too. I enjoy reading the ID's from those with more experience.

[snick]

What's an LBJ?

[BarnSwallow]

Little brown job - all those little streaky brown sparrows and sparrow-like birds that are impossible to distinguish from one another!!

[TheBillyPilgrim]

Please post as much as you want. It help us learn too. I enjoy reading the ID's from those with more experience.

I second this. There's never a stupid question and your posts will undoubtedly help someone else learn/refresh their knowledge. That's why an open forum like this is such a wonderful tool!

[creeker]

Eh, I have fun IDing pics posted here! Not a nuisance at all. I mean, as long as you don't post shorebirds, empids, juvie gulls, LBJs, it's fun!!

Add to the list female hummingbirds.....

[snick]

Please post as much as you want. It help us learn too. I enjoy reading the ID's from those with more experience.

I second this. There's never a stupid question and your posts will undoubtedly help someone else learn/refresh their knowledge. That's why an open forum like this is such a wonderful tool!

Here's where my 'nuisance' concern originated: When I first started posting a few months ago, I got a bunch of responses from the 'regulars' in each post. After a little while, I would post a bunch of ID requests in a row and get fewer responses, some with only 1 ID confirmation. I would then 'bump' my posts occasionally to get more ID confirmations. I started to think that, maybe, some of the forum members were going, "oh, not this guy again", and not bothering to look at the ID requests.

This is probably much ado about nothing, but there you have it.

Just about everyone here is friendly, helpful and knowledgable, though. I would not have been able to discover and enjoy birding the way I have without you folks!

[BarnSwallow]

It probably has more to do with the type of bird - some, like shorebirds, can be harder to ID, so fewer people will chime in. Or, if the pics are fuzzy, they might just be too hard to ID. Also, as you get better at IDing, you're probably asking for IDs of more difficult birds, because you get the easier ones. One more possibility - the birds are harder to ID right now because of nonbreeding plumage. So keep posting and asking!!

[BarnSwallow]

Add to the list female hummingbirds.....

It's easy - they're all ruby-throats....every last one of them! Of course, I live on the east coast!

[snick]

It probably has more to do with the type of bird - some, like shorebirds, can be harder to ID, so fewer people will chime in. Or, if the pics are fuzzy, they might just be too hard to ID. Also, as you get better at IDing, you're probably asking for IDs of more difficult birds, because you get the easier ones. One more possibility - the birds are harder to ID right now because of nonbreeding plumage. So keep posting and asking!!

These are all good points. Thanks.