Revup67

Allen's or Rufous Male Hummingbird

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apparently both can have green backs and according to Sibley's they are difficult to tell apart except for broader wings on Rufous version.

Any experts out there? southern cal location about 1 mile from beach if that helps any. Found in largers tree not shrubs

8538977974_919d31fba0_b.jpg

Hummingbird - Creekside Park by Revup67, on Flickr

have a few more photos if needed

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i believe its an allens., rufous can be marked with green but very rarely entirely green, . i see a green back on this one and it appears to be a male allens but wait for others to reply. maybe post some other pictures so we can see more of the bird. :)

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Ok thanks Birdluvr..working on some other shots at the moment - will try and upload very soon

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hmmm its hard to say. im still leaning towards allens.. im in southern calif also and get both rufous and allens side by side at my feeders too, normally i can tell them apart. usually male rufous has very little green on the back if at all. females tend to have more green on them but this is a male due to the colorful gorget

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Beautiful shots. I think all three of these shots are of different birds. The first has a fully colored gorget and rufous flanks, the second has just a patch of colored gorget and rufous flanks, the third also has only a patch of colored gorget and mostly white flanks. I think that means the first is a male, the second two are females. As to what species they are I am not qualified or comfortable to weigh in. Again, excellent shots!

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I am pretty sure its the same bird I was circling around the same bush and watched this bird for about 30 minutes. Though with my eye in the view finder anything is possible to happen right before my eyes especially with their speed. And where there's one, there's likely others.

here's one more shot. this is perhaps my favorite of the bunch.

8538011513_c18577c956_b.jpg

Allen's Humminbird - Creekside Park by Revup67, on Flickr

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Birdluvr..it appears at this same park I've got mixed in here a few different birds though more than likely of the same species just check out the gorget on the first photo vs. the rest. much different - I appreciate all the assistance.

A few more photos at: http://www.flickr.com/revup67

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Given that you're in Southern California where Allen's is expected, I'd have no trouble calling the first one an adult male Allen's. (If you want 100% certainty, you're going to have to catch one and measure the tail feathers, I'm afraid.) The others look like either immature males or females, and they're pretty much indistinguishable except in the hand.

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If you want a definite answer, you've definitely got Selasphorus hummingbirds. Rufous are back in So Cal now, just saw my first adult male at the feeder yesterday. Agree with psweet, the others all look like females or immature birds, so I wouldn't venture a guess on those.

Odds are strongly in favor of the the first bird being an Allen's, but you can't be 100% sure. Getting a good picture of it with spread tail feathers would be confirmatory.

IMG_9054.JPG

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I have no idea what type it is, but the camera work is gorgeous! :)

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thats definitely an allens :)

As Psweet and GuyIncognito pointed out, there's no way to ever be 100% on these birds without a great shot of the tail or the bird in hand.

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those are all allens. some are immature, some females but all allens. theres too much green in them for rufous. i know people say male rufous can have green on them, which is true but if they do have green, its normally just flecks of green, if at all,and females on the other hand can have more green on them but i still believe they are all allens.

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If you want a definite answer, you've definitely got Selasphorus hummingbirds. Rufous are back in So Cal now, just saw my first adult male at the feeder yesterday. Agree with psweet, the others all look like females or immature birds, so I wouldn't venture a guess on those.

Odds are strongly in favor of the the first bird being an Allen's, but you can't be 100% sure. Getting a good picture of it with spread tail feathers would be confirmatory.

IMG_9054.JPG

That is one incredible shot!

And Rev, very nice photos as usual. I have a feeling we'll cross paths one of these days:) I keep a look out for a big 400mm lens:)

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If you want a definite answer, you've definitely got Selasphorus hummingbirds. Rufous are back in So Cal now, just saw my first adult male at the feeder yesterday. Agree with psweet, the others all look like females or immature birds, so I wouldn't venture a guess on those.

Odds are strongly in favor of the the first bird being an Allen's, but you can't be 100% sure. Getting a good picture of it with spread tail feathers would be confirmatory.

IMG_9054.JPG

guy_ you never fail to amaze me!

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those are all allens. some are immature, some females but all allens. theres too much green in them for rufous. i know people say male rufous can have green on them, which is true but if they do have green, its normally just flecks of green, if at all,and females on the other hand can have more green on them but i still believe they are all allens.

The female and immatures of both species have all green backs, and are indistinguishable from each other by plumage You'll find this supported by all major field guides and hummingbird experts. It's tough, because we birders always want to put a name to every bird we see, but in this case that's just not possible. There is just no way of reliably identifying females and immatures by plumage.

Here's some good links with more info on the topic, discussing that fact that there is apparently overlap in the back color of even adult males, (including some bird that were adult male rufous hummingbirds by measurement, but showed greater than 95% green backs!).

http://texasbirds.or...llenshummt.html

http://home.pacifier...HUMMREPORT.html

http://www.hummingbi...net/rufous.html

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those are all allens. some are immature, some females but all allens. theres too much green in them for rufous. i know people say male rufous can have green on them, which is true but if they do have green, its normally just flecks of green, if at all,and females on the other hand can have more green on them but i still believe they are all allens.

Sorry Birdluvr, but this logic is incorrect and poor information. Some male rufous are essentially identical to Allen's in the amount of green they show, and the females and immatures are indistinguishable outside of tail feather shape. I suggest doing some reading on the subject (Darknight provided some great links) to better understand the nuances of these challenging IDs.

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guy_ you never fail to amaze me!

Thanks. Hopefully the Rufous will stick around. I would like to get a good shot of some Rufous tail feathers for a nice comparison pic. But what I really want to get is a green-backed Rufous Hummingbird tail feather shot, which would be great for ID and educational purposes.

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That'd be great! Good luck, they are supposed to be quite rare.

My money's on guy! :)

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i

Sorry Birdluvr, but this logic is incorrect and poor information. Some male rufous are essentially identical to Allen's in the amount of green they show, and the females and immatures are indistinguishable outside of tail feather shape. I suggest doing some reading on the subject (Darknight provided some great links) to better understand the nuances of these challenging IDs.

im going by my National Geographic Guide. it says it clearly.. i do agree about the tail feathers and some allens and rufous are indistinguishable in the field but im not into researching hummingbird tail feathers and getting that specific, same with subspecies of some birds. im not into subspecies either. i also dont agree that its poor information or logic..when my guide clearly states about the plumages..

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Looking at Nat. Geo. -- under Rufous, it states that males very rarely have entirely green backs. Under Allen's, it says males usually distinguishable by solid green backs and adult female and immatures inseparable in the field from female Rufous.

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