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Photography newbie seeking info

Last post 10-10-2009, 3:00 PM by Bill-4. 6 replies.
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  •  09-28-2009, 6:19 PM 117863

    Photography newbie seeking info

    I've really wanted to get into bird photography for a little while now, but I've got little experience with photography besides being quite adept with macro photography of insects on your standard digital camera. SO, a couple questions:

     

    What exactly are point-and-shoot and DSLR cameras, what is the difference hardware-wise, and what can I expect in the realm of photo clarity?

    Which one should I get?

    And finally, how much would I be looking to spend to get quality bird pictures?

     

    Thanks for any and all info!


    Total birds seen: 205
    Latest lifers:
    Brown Creeper, Field Sparrow, White-crowned Sparrow
    Favorite lifers:
    Black-billed Cuckoo, Reddish Egret, Wood Stork
  •  09-28-2009, 6:26 PM 117864 in reply to 117863

    Re: Photography newbie seeking info

    There's a world of difference between the two, though a high-end P&S could be similar to a low-end dSLR.  I have a Canon S5 (not really high-end, but not a basic P&S) for about $300 last year, while a basic Canon dSLR body might cost over $1000 (plus you have to buy any lenses to want -- there's no zoom that I know of on just the body).

    There are many people on here that are very knowledgeable about this that will answer soon, I'm sure.  Just wanted to get you thinking about what your budget is, though. 

  •  09-28-2009, 6:32 PM 117865 in reply to 117864

    Re: Photography newbie seeking info

    A couple of links that might help you out (they helped me out when I was looking for what turned out to be the S5):

    CNET's camera buying guide -- you can find what profile fits you and it tells you what to look for in terms of price, zoom, resolution, etc.  http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-camera-buying-guide/?tag=rb_mtx;contentNav

     DPReview -- lots of camera reviews, very in-depth with their analysis.  http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ 

  •  09-28-2009, 7:25 PM 117867 in reply to 117863

    Re: Photography newbie seeking info

    Kryptos18:

    What exactly are point-and-shoot and DSLR cameras, what is the difference hardware-wise, and what can I expect in the realm of photo clarity?

    Point-and-shoot cameras are the all-in-one cameras that you find selling from $100 to around $500 these days.  They have a single, fixed (not interchangeable) lens, an LCD screen for composing the image (a few have a separate optical viewfinder as well), and are geared toward automated use, although most of them also allow some degree of manual exposure control.  Most of the controls are presented on the LCD screen, with only a few buttons available for manipulating the settings.  Point-and-shoots also have no mechanical shutter, which makes them slower to capture the image when you push the button, and the maximum shutter speeds top out at 1/2000 of a second on most models.

    DSLR (Digital Single Lens Reflex) cameras are larger, have interchangeable lenses, and can cost anywhere from $400 to $900 for a consumer-level model.  $1500 to $2500 for enthusiast/semi-pro models, and up to $8000 for professional models.  All DSLR's have mechanical shutters and will capture the image immediately when the shutter is pressed.  The higher-end DSLR's have shutter speeds up to 1/8000 of a second.  The controls vary with the models as well.  The lower-end DSLRs cameras are geared primarily for automatic use, with most of the controls presented on the LCD screen.  The higher-end models have many more switches, dials, and buttons allowing for more efficient manual adjustments to the exposure settings (useful if you need to adjust things on the fly). 

     

    Kryptos18:

    And finally, how much would I be looking to spend to get quality bird pictures?

    I'll answer this one second, as it feeds into the other question.  Quality is a very relative term, and your own perception of quality will likely vary as you gain experience in photography.  In my case, the images I took three years ago and thought were great are now only so-so  Smile

    In all likelihood, if you went and spent $300 on a decent P&S camera, you'd be pretty happy with the quality.  If you used it a lot, did some reading in a few photography how-to books, and gained some field experience, you'd probably start running into the limitations of P&S cameras.  Primarily, these limitations are the slow shutter response time and the lesser optical resolution.

    By "optical resolution," I mean the sharpness of the image the lens can create, not the digital resolution (number of megapixels captured by the image sensor, which are close to equivalent between both kinds of cameras, except for the more expensive DSLR's).  All DSLR cameras have larger lenses than P&S cameras, which allows them to gather more light (more photons).  More photons mean sharper images.  Whether the photographer has the skill to capture the optimal image is another story, but in general, with a quality lens in place, every DSLR has the potential to create sharper images than any P&S camera.  The trick for the DSLR photographer is to assess the lighting conditions and the subject, and then get all the settings right so the lens forms the best image it can, and the shutter lets that image pass from the focal plane, through the sensor, and onto the memory card.  The automatic settings on both kinds of cameras do a pretty good job most of the time, but the more experienced photographers know when and how to help them along with a few manual tweaks.


    Kryptos18:

    Which one should I get?

    This really depends on how serious a photographer you want to be.  I won't lie.  DSLR's cost a lot more than the initial price you pay for them.  First, you get your camera body, and one or two "kit" lenses.  The kit lenses are the cheapest lenses that the manufacturer makes.  A Nikon D5000 kit runs about $1000 with an 18-55mm and a 55-200mm lens.  The lenses by themselves cost about $150 each.  For comparison, the last two lenses I bought cost $400 and $450, and these are considered cheap lenses.  I recently rented a lens that cost me $280 for the week, plus shipping and insurance.  It's $5000 to buy, and I'm seriously considering buying one, simply because I got the best shots of my life while I was renting that big high-end lens for a week.

    Now, no one is forcing me to buy these things, and there's no obligation to do so.  The kit lenses will last a long time.  The problem is as I go on more and more outings, I keep running into the limitations of my gear, and it starts to become worth it to invest in the higher quality stuff.

    On the other hand, you could just go out and buy that $300 P&S that the reviews say is the best one available this year.

    If you're still undecided, here are a few points that might help:

    • DSLR's are big and bulky, P&S cameras can slip into a pocket.  Are you willing to sacrifice some potential quality for a camera that's easy to carry?
    • DSLR's are more expensive at the outset, and can cost even more as lenses, filters, and accessories are added
    • P&S cameras are as good as they'll ever be when you buy them.  DSLR's can accept more capable (and more expensive) lenses as your skill increases.
    • P&S cameras are cheap, and you can always buy a new one when they get better
    • You can buy a new DSLR camera body for the latest features, and still keep using your existing lenses (some lenses cost far more than the camera body does!)
    • DSLR cameras can shoot from 4-9 frames per second, P&S cameras can typically only manage 1 or 2
    • DSLR cameras fire the shutter instantly, even the best P&S cameras have a slight delay (not good for jumpy little birds)
    • The newest DSLR models have live LCD viewfinder and video capture (no longer a feature discrepancy here)
    • DSLR cameras can control powerful external flash units (more useful in wildlife photography than you might think), only a handful of P&S cameras can do this

    I can't just come out and say which one you should buy.  It really comes down to how much you want to spend, which is closely related to how much time you'll spend with photography.  I've tried to give you enough info to start the decision process.

    Please feel free to ask if you have any more questions, and I'll answer as best as I can.  I'm sure others will contribute their own opinions, too.

  •  09-28-2009, 7:46 PM 117870 in reply to 117867

    Re: Photography newbie seeking info

    Thank you both for the info! I clearly have a lot to consider here.

     I could see paying up to $1000 for a camera/lens (from what I hear the DSLR kits are the way to go in that case). I definitely want to learn to be a better photographer and capture quality images of the smaller Passerines (warblers mostly). Unfortunately, I'm not quite in the position to go all out on a camera/lens combo at the moment, so a temporary high-end P&S might be the best option for me at the moment, and knowing my wishes/needs, I wondered if you agreed? We'll see how the year turns out anyway, but thanks again for all the info, it's truly indispensable!

     ::EDIT:: A few somewhat germane questions I had:

    What's the level of automatic vs. manual focus on the DSLR? My friend has a DSLR with a telephoto zoom lens and it auto focuses, is that the norm? Secondly, some of the best birding I've had has occurred in drizzly to moderately rainy conditions. Is this the kind of thing I'd want to steer clear of with DSLR and PnS? And finally, for both, what's the level of motion compensation on these? If I have what I wouldn't call the most stable hands in the world (but by no means bad), could I still expect a good shot from a zoom lens'd DSLR? Thanks again!


    Total birds seen: 205
    Latest lifers:
    Brown Creeper, Field Sparrow, White-crowned Sparrow
    Favorite lifers:
    Black-billed Cuckoo, Reddish Egret, Wood Stork
  •  09-28-2009, 9:11 PM 117885 in reply to 117870

    Re: Photography newbie seeking info

    Kryptos18:

    Thank you both for the info! I clearly have a lot to consider here.

    You've been very helpful in the ID forums, so it's the least I could do  Smile

     

    Kryptos18:

    I could see paying up to $1000 for a camera/lens (from what I hear the DSLR kits are the way to go in that case). I definitely want to learn to be a better photographer and capture quality images of the smaller Passerines (warblers mostly). Unfortunately, I'm not quite in the position to go all out on a camera/lens combo at the moment, so a temporary high-end P&S might be the best option for me at the moment, and knowing my wishes/needs, I wondered if you agreed? We'll see how the year turns out anyway, but thanks again for all the info, it's truly indispensable!

    If your budget is $1000, and your target is warblers, I'd definitely go DSLR.  Warblers are often energetic, to put it mildly, and I think you'd get frustrated with a P&S and their slow shutter response time.  Even the best P&S cameras take more than a tenth of a second between the time when you push the button and when the image starts being captured.

    I'll admit I'm a Nikon fanboy, and point you to the D5000 or D90 kits (the D90 might be a bit more than $1000, but it's a more capable camera).  I'm sure Canon has kits that are similar.  Both vendors make excellent cameras and lenses.

     

    Kryptos18:

    What's the level of automatic vs. manual focus on the DSLR? My friend has a DSLR with a telephoto zoom lens and it auto focuses, is that the norm?

    Yes.  You won't be able to find a DSLR that doesn't auto-focus.  Some of the lower-end Nikon cameras (D5000 and below) require certain lenses for auto-focus to work (called AF-S lenses), but honestly, those are the better lenses anyway.  They have the silent motor drive that is quicker and quiet, and also allows you to manually adjust focus while the autofocus is still engaged.  This is really nice when your camera decides that the branch is more important than the warbler that's perched on it.

     

     

    Kryptos18:

    Secondly, some of the best birding I've had has occurred in drizzly to moderately rainy conditions. Is this the kind of thing I'd want to steer clear of with DSLR and PnS?

    I took a picture of a waterfall with my older D100, from under the waterfall.  I got sprayed pretty heavily, and so did the camera, but I didn't have any problems with it (not that I recommend this kind of thing, mind you).  I think the semi-pro models are a bit more resilient to weather.   As long as you use some common sense, you'll probably be fine.  (Keep the camera covered when you're not actually shooting, don't change lenses in the rain, things like that)

     

    Kryptos18:

    And finally, for both, what's the level of motion compensation on these? If I have what I wouldn't call the most stable hands in the world (but by no means bad), could I still expect a good shot from a zoom lens'd DSLR? Thanks again!

    Good question.  Most P&S cameras have some kind of motion compensation built into the camera itself.  Canon calls it IS (image stabilization), while Nikon calls it VR (vibration reduction).  For DSLR's, the compensation is usually built into the lens as a floating lens element (I think Sony's Alpha DSLRs are an exception).  My newest lens, for example, is the Nikkor 70-300mm ED AF-S VR (great lens for the price, by the way).  Again, VR=vibration reduction.  Basically you pay a bit more for the lens to get the motion compensation.  They're also a bit larger and heavier than their non-VR cousins.

     

    EDIT:  By the way, when you're ready to buy, go to bhphotovideo.com or adorama.com.  If you want to buy locally, at least use the prices from those two places as a reference point.  I got my 70-300mm lens from B&H for under $450, while Best Buy wanted over $600.  I also got a great deal on my D300 from B&H.

  •  10-10-2009, 3:00 PM 119729 in reply to 117863

    Re: Photography newbie seeking info

    I have used Canon equipment for a number of year to photograph birds with good success.  Right now I am using the Canon DSLR Rebel XSi and the Canon 100-400 mm f4.5-5.6 IS.  Canon makes the Rebel series and the D40 and D50 as mentioned.  The size of the lens relates as to how expensive it is (telephotos cost more), how close you can get to the bird and how heavy the lens is.  Quality lenses and cameras with more megapixels help you to later crop and enlarge your photo/subject with less loss of quality.  There are also less expensive telephotos made by Sigma and Tameron that will fit on a Canon body.  Estimated costs of the equipment above are XSi ($550) and the 100-400 telephoto ($1650 - it's gone up!).  Both Canon and Nikon make excellent equipment.  Oh, and one other thing, some bird photographers carry a lightweight tripod or monopod to steady the camera when photographing stationary birds.

     


    Bill
    Life birds: 1134 (US and international)
    Favorite US bird: Red-faced Warbler
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